Living in the Joy of Our Natural Being ~ Interview with Esprit Yoga Magazine

Living in the Joy of Our Natural Being ~ Interview with Esprit Yoga Magazine


Skype Satsang with Mooji Interview with ‘Esprit Yoga Magazine’ Living in the Joy of Our Natural Being
26-01-2017 [Interviewer] Namaste.
[Mooji] Namaste Celine. Very, very good. [I.] Thank you very much
for agreeing to this interview. [Mooji] Yes, thank you.
[I.] Thank you. [I.] So, the subject today is freedom.
[Mooji] Yes. [I.] So for you,
what are the qualities of a free being? [Mooji] What are the qualities of a free being? If I understood the question correctly then, my feeling is that one who is free is one who has really grasped inside the heart the understanding which removes ignorance
of the true Self. So that removing of ignorance is not merely an intellectual process. It is a very deep cleansing and in fact a cure. So, one who has experience, who is now in the experience of the free mind,
the true mind, in such a one is reflecting or radiating
the quality of peace, a natural joy and happiness. They are not happy because some nice thing
has happened to them. They are living in the joy of their natural being. They are very open and I would say
full peace is there and wisdom also. [I.] Thank you. And so, what are the obstacles to our freedom? [Mooji] The obstacles? Good question. First of all,
I would like to establish what I mean, that everyone is fundamentally free. I mean, we are born free, but conditioning arises for everyone. And it is so universal, this conditioning, that it happens to animals and insects also. Everything that is an expression of consciousness comes under some kind of conditioning. But it is more strongly displayed,
or not more strongly displayed, but it is very strongly displayed
in the human kingdom, in the sense that we strongly identify
with our body, that we are our body. And our social conditioning,
or religious conditioning, or political conditioning
shapes who we think we are. It helps to create in our minds
an impression or an identity and we believe this is who we are. And that starts from very young,
from very early. As soon as the consciousness
is in a developmental state, it is already forming this shape. ‘I am this person’, ‘I am a girl’, ‘I am a boy’, ‘I am Hindu’, or ‘I am British’, or ‘I am …’
Whatever. These impressions get formed very early and as soon as they are fixed or set inside the consciousness as deep impressions, that will be the obstacle to our realisation that we are inherently free. We don’t even know what freedom means. We limit the freedom mostly to,
‘I am free to do what I want, or to go where I want’,
which is also a form of freedom, but not the freedom that you are asking about. [I.] When we fall in love we develop attachment. So, how can we avoid that attachment becoming a kind of jail for our mind? [Mooji] Mmm! Good question! First of all, if you are someone for whom
Self-discovery is important, to discover your true nature is very important, then I would say
that it would be more favourable for you to ensure that your partner
is at least open to your search, or at least open enough to allow you
to explore your own journey, your own possibilities; that will be helpful. More than that, if they were called
by the same urge or voice then that would be super cool. That would be very, very good. [laughter] But unfortunately,
life seems to be very unpredictable in this way. Sometimes we fall in love with someone who has very contrary views, who is not interested in spirituality. So, that will be quite difficult, I would say. And so really, for one to discover the Truth there has to be a strength, a resolve inside your heart
that it doesn’t really matter. Nothing will stop me from finding this thing that my heart is yearning to find. I would say, such a person is very rare and is a real gem in this world. If you find someone who realises that the most important discovery for them, or the most important thing in their life is not necessarily a partner, or children,
or money, or success in the world,
but to discover their true nature, that is very rare and very powerful. So, their partner will not stop them,
if they have a partnership. But your question was, ‘How to avoid it when we form attachments?’ And really, one of the reasons why we form attachments in the first place is that we are not strong enough
in our own true place. Because if you are clear about who you are, if you are established in your heart, then the love that you have for someone
will not displace you. In fact, there will be so much wisdom,
so much openness, I was about to say,
that it would inspire them to be more like you, but it doesn’t always work like that. [I.] Thank you. About yoga. The practice of yoga
gives us inner space and vastness and it is called an expansion of consciousness. What kind of meditation or keys can help us
to expand this inner space? [Mooji] Well, there are various forms of yoga,
of course. We can call this jnana yoga. Jnana yoga means knowledge yoga, which is ‘knowledge of the Self’ yoga. It’s not only …
even in common life, we have the opportunity
to expand in consciousness, although often it is very slow. When consciousness begins to flower beautifully, once there is the urge inside the heart and the sense that there is much more
and it is really available, and the mind or the being
turns towards this possibility then things get speeded up very, very quickly. I was a bit surprised because you said that in yoga you have this inner sense
of expansiveness and spaciousness. If your yoga is providing that, then this is already something very great. Because I feel that one of the great
modern sicknesses is that people lack inner space. We are so full of conceptual noise
and informational noise, attachments and judgments, that there is a claustrophobia for many people and they have not quite understood that. So, what that does is it makes us more aggressive and it makes people more aggressive
and very unstable. Whereas you say,
in your yoga you have spaciousness. What form of yoga are you speaking about? [I.] The practice of hatha yoga, physical yoga. [Mooji] Well, that would really be
amongst the physical expressions, the phenomenal expressions, that would be for me,
the best advertisement for your yoga. If it brings you inner spaciousness and peace then it is definitely on the right track. But to complete that peace,
you must be perfectly grounded in the understanding,
which is the same as the Being. So, your understanding and your Being
are the same, they are one. That is the true yoga, which means to bring two things into oneness, so that there is no separation
of the sense of yourself and your Being. It means the same thing.
You are your Being. [I.] OK. And in your path and in the way of yoga there are great Masters and yogis, like Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, or Papaji. This word ‘Master’ is considered by many
as a loss of freedom. [Mooji] I see. [I.] Which may be scary for them. In your experience
what have your masters taught you? [Mooji] So first of all,
it is a very big misunderstanding. One is that,
people are not free in the first place. The Master alone is free. But there is a sense of an egoic freedom, which means, ‘I do what I want to do’,
‘I go my own way’ and so on. Consciousness permits the life form
and the life force and consciousness,
while it is believing itself to be a person, to have this limited sense of personal freedom. So the person has a lot of ignorance
and arrogance also, in believing, ‘I do what I want’ and so on. But we don’t really have total freedom
to do what we want. I think if we have the freedom to do what we want, almost everybody would be rich
and very beautiful according to their idea and be married to the perfect person
who perfectly loves them. But this freedom we don’t have. We have the freedom to dream, but we don’t have the freedom or the power to make that dream come true
in the way that we imagine. So, it is the same deluded person
who is thinking that if you have a master
then that is giving up your freedom. Actually, it is giving up your bondage. If you find a true Master,
because Master means freedom, and a true Master only wishes for your freedom. He only works for your true freedom,
not your ego freedom. So, it is a question of exchanging
one small thing for a greater thing. He doesn’t even want you to exchange. You think that you are giving the Master
your freedom. He doesn’t want your freedom. We are not doing the Master any favour. This is one gift,
that you have given him your worst in order to discover your best. There should be a gratitude there, because the Master must represent freedom. We are not talking about the old idea
of master and slave. This is different. The Master does not want to make you a slave. The Master wants you to master your mind, but not to be an arrogant master. A true Master is only assisting each one
to find real joy, real happiness and real freedom. So, that misunderstanding has to be redefined and has to be understood in the correct way. The Master cannot bind you,
unless he is a false master. He cannot bind you. There is nothing in the world, there is no one in the world,
including your parents, your husband, or wife, or your children,
or your teachers, who is working on behalf of your freedom like a true spiritual Master.
Do you understand? It would be just like, God wants you to be bound.
Of course not! Everything is for your freedom. True freedom, not just limited egoic freedom, but real spiritual freedom
which is to know and be your Self and to be full of love and radiate all this joy. And all of the masters,
some of them you mentioned, Ramakrishna, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Papaji, you can mention Christ, or Krishna,
or the prophet Muhammad, all of them are remembered
not just as historical beings, but as beings who radiate
or emanate the qualities of love and peace and joy and good guidance
and wisdom to the world. So, how can you be giving up your freedom? [I.] Yes, thank you. So, the practice of meditation, of yoga,
is that a way for freedom, or can that become a jail too? [Mooji] In the beginning practice is unavoidable and very highly recommended, because the mind tends to have
certain habits which are not good. And to correct those habits
some effort is required. Maybe meditation, yoga,
chanting, prayers, pranayam, these types of things are helpful to correct the negative tendencies in the mind. But at a certain point, the student or the seeker must be developing. And if a seeker is genuine
he will develop very, very fast, faster than the regular person
who is studying in another field, because you have grace with you. You are trying to discover your original nature, so the universe supports your search. So, if you are genuine,
you are going to find that waves of illumination will be coming to you, you will be having so many freebies. So much is coming to assist you in this way. At a certain point though, you will notice that your searching
can begin to become an obstacle. As you are growing, you are growing in the power to discern very well, between what is false and what is true. This discernment is going to help you to recognise when it is time to let go
of your sense of separateness. And it will help you.
So, initially the practice is good. The seeker identity helps you in the beginning, but later when it is not useful anymore, you will know that
and you will let go of it. Right now as we are talking,
an image comes in my mind, like when astronauts are going into space. They get into the rocket and they go up, up, up and there is a lot of power, a lot of petrol. A lot of fire ‘whoa’! Going, going, going. When they reach beyond the pull
of the magnetism of the earth, when they have exceeded that,
they go past that, then the bit that was generating the energy
falls away and they are just floating in space. Do you see my point?
Do you get my picture? So, initially there is some effort.
We are pushing, pushing. That effort is to take you to effortlessness. And as soon as you recognise the effortless then the effort is not needed anymore. And there is a wisdom that will tell you
when that moment is there. [I.] So, what you do, is it that
mind has to stay free, like a witness? [Mooji] Actually, you can put it like that. The mind itself means thought, because the mind is not an organ. Mind simply means thought. I mean, the brain is an organ,
but mind is not an organ. Mind is just thought activity. And it is that thought activity believed in,
or identified with, that sometimes creates confusion, or arrogance, or the sense of knowledge. And all of these are witnessed
within consciousness itself, which is what we are. And even the idea we have of ourselves,
which is not our Self, is also witnessable. But it becomes more witnessable
as we mature to the stage where we become aware
that our personality is also phenomenal, it is also impermanent, it is not the source. You come into the discovery of the Source, sometimes not by seeing the Source, you cannot see it because it is not an object. It’s just that
the false ideas that we have fall away and when they fall away the Source alone is left. So, you and Source are the same. So, in the feeling of ‘me’ and the Source,
the ‘me’ becomes so weak, now there is only the Source. But the Source does not say, ‘I am Source’.
It just is. Just like a chair does not say, ‘I am a chair’,
it just is. [I.] So in this way, the tradition of Advaita Vedanta
does not speak of being free, but rather of being liberated. Why? [Mooji] It’s just a different use of terms. This term ‘freedom’ is so widely used
in so many different contexts, political freedom, this type of freedom
and so on. ‘Liberation’ has a bit more profound ring to it. Liberation means free forever. But even this
has been given a limited connotation, like political liberation, or something like this. So, words will always create these coordinates, they will always create this unsteadiness. But ‘liberation’
has a little bit more of a profound ring. I can use the word ‘freedom’ as well. It’s not just a word, but the intention behind it. In Advaita, the language often uses the words ‘freedom’ and ‘liberation’; it’s the same. Sometimes we use the word ‘Self’, or ‘pure consciousness’, or ‘awareness’ and they mean the same thing. [I.] Yes, thank you. So, what is the role of grace in this process? [Mooji] Grace. Of all the words that we can use grace is the most mysterious, because in a way,
no one knows what it is exactly, but I am going to put it
that it is divine benevolence. It’s like the gift that comes
without our deserving it, but it comes from the Source.
This is one way of putting it. Grace is also another name for what we truly are. And grace I feel, one way of saying it is,
God pampering God. Do you know the word pampering?
It means giving abundantly. [I.] Yes, yes, yes. [Mooji] So, in order to have the sense of giving, it means like giving to other,
or giving to another. But when the reality is discovered you see that the other is also your Self. This is what Self-realisation really is. One of the fruits is the realisation
that there really are not two. There is not really ‘other’.
‘Other’ is an appearance within the one. It is only the One. Sometimes I say that,
really there are no conversations, there are no dialogues in the world,
there is only a monologue. It is only the Supreme speaking with the Supreme in the play, or a dream called life, or otherness. So, grace is what flows from the heart
towards the mind to help it to purify
and to be free from suffering and to discover the Truth. That would be another kind of definition. But definitions change
depending upon the maturity of the seeker. [I.] Thank you very much
for these great teachings. [Mooji] For myself, it is not enough
to explain things verbally, because even as we are speaking, for me the words must generate
an atmosphere inside the heart and contribute to experiencing. They must be experienced,
they must not only be heard. And they do move more internally,
because it is important to experience. [I.] Which kind of atmosphere do you mean? [Mooji] I mean, to create the atmosphere inside that is generated when understanding
takes place in the heart. It creates that kind of spaciousness,
a sort of emptiness also, more than just collecting information. It’s more that it has to be experienced,
it gets experienced and this is the emphasis here in Monte Sahaja. When we meet,
it’s about how that is transformed internally. It is like the words become
a kind of spirit themselves, they come from there and they go there. [I.] Yes, I understand. And so in your ashram, what are the practices? Is it just an atmosphere?
Or do you meditate? Do you pray? What is the practice? [Mooji] Well, in the mornings
we start with what is called Aarti. It is a very beautiful part of our mornings. It starts at 06:30 and there is some chanting. It’s beautiful chanting, followed by half an hour of silent sitting. But this silent sitting
is more a kind of guided meditation actually, to focus the attention inside the heart
so that it is experienced. Then after this time,
people take their breakfast and then we go to the areas
that we are working in the ashram, because there are many areas that we work in. But we do meet
and we have spontaneous satsangs. The whole atmosphere,
the whole environment, the climate, seems to be infused with this inner inwardness. It’s not something that
I can convey just with words. But our interactions are so much based
on the sense of presence and on the pure awareness, conscious awareness, being conscious of your own Being and that is what we try to cultivate here. Even though your actions may be very practical, or you are working on the land, or whatever you are doing,
kitchen work or whatever, the mind stays in the heart,
if you understand. And we are very natural in expression. I don’t like anything too pretentious.
Nothing like that. I like people to be themselves. But when we explore into the nature of being, it is taken, from my side, I can say, always with the opportunity
to destroy what is not true, to expose that
and to free the mind to be in the heart. [I.] Thank you very much. [Mooji] Thank you Celine
and all the friends there for being present. And I bless that this interview will reach those who are subconsciously waiting for it in some way. And that it brings more light
to clarify what needs to be clarified and to bring people more into their conscious Self. [I.] Yes, I understand. Good. [Mooji] Thank you. Thank you. [I.] Thank you very much
and I think it is time to say … [Mooji] Merci beaucoup. [laughter] And thanks to the friends there
and all the very best. Beautiful days. [I.] Thank you very much.
And please be welcome in France. [Mooji] Thank you, thank you. Very good. Copyright © 2017 Mooji Media Ltd.
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